Peptides are the latest US health craze. But what exactly are ...

00:00 Speaker A

I thought Michael maybe we would start simple for viewers and just help us understand what is a peptide, Michael? Is it a drug, is it a supplement, is it something else? Break it down.

00:12 Michael

Can I just say yes to all the above? Um it it is a bit of both. It is a set of drugs um by the typical definition but also more tied to a supplement function designed to help in some level of wellness.

00:24 Michael

When we think about peptides now, obviously GLP1s the P is for peptide, so that's been the most popular one. But I think the peptides that we're discussing here are opportunities for uh stuff like muscle um uh fixing, you know, kind of recovery efforts, um other wellness efforts that you have these drugs that are particularly being used either off label or as mentioned before in the gray market in order to find ways for people to pursue different wellness opportunities above and beyond what is currently being prescribed to them by doctors.

00:46 Speaker A

So weight loss, recovery, longevity. Um where are most peptides made, Michael? Is it is it here in the US? Is it China? Um explain the supply chain.

00:55 Michael

Yeah, the supply chain at least at this point in time has been a bit murky. There's certainly a number of these alternative compounding pharmacies that exist, many of them with varying degrees of licenses of different levels of confidence or legal authority, but basically are being used in a way to get people who are into the wellness or I think the term that uh we've used the health maxing craze, a way for them to get some of these medications.

01:23 Michael

Now, it is important to note that a lot of these peptides do have um some level of provability um for for certain the ones that at least that we evaluated in a recent node. And so in those cases, you do have off-label usage for a drug that might typically be for something like ulcerative colitis that's then being used for muscle recovery for athletes or individuals who just want to have their body feel better.

01:42 Speaker A

I did want to ask you about that, Michael, like how much of this is is science versus hype? and it sounds like you've dug into that a bit.

01:49 Michael

I think there is still a healthy amount of science here, maybe not completely proven the way you would think of a typical clinical trial, but definitely looking at drug end points and how the drugs are meant to affect the body and being used in different functions.

02:00 Michael

It is important to note too and the theme of peptides from a bigger category but to step back to GLP-1s, GLP-1s right now the entire discussion point, the entire hype is around weight loss, but GLP-1s have been around for a long period of time to treat diabetes. So certainly with drugs such as many peptides in recent analysis that we did have different functions, some of it in some cases found out almost by accident. But there are ways where drugs can go from being used for one function to being used for alternative or additional functions as well.

02:29 Speaker A

How much do peptides cost, Michael?

02:32 Michael

go on Google and you can find a whole range of prices on on what might be out there. Um

02:38 Michael

when we did our recent analysis, what we tried to do is use the framework of what could be found in a searchable market, combined with what we've seen on how the direct consumer market played out for GLP-1s. We don't know what peptide such as BPC 157, which I think is one of the most popular ones out there, will eventually settle out as a price assuming that we do get a broader FDA acceptance. But we do know

03:00 Michael

what's happened with GLP-1s and pricing from companies like Hims and other telehealth pharmacies that has come in at um various different price points anywhere from $150 to $250 depending on coverage, potentially more um for drugs like Zepbound which have been proven to be a bit more effective in terms of their clinical studies.

03:17 Michael

The way we've thought about the potential peptide mar- tide market developing, again, assuming that we do get uh positive FDA uh recommendations would fall something akin to what we saw with the recent trend on GLP once.

03:32 Speaker A

What if we don't get those positive FDA uh uh decisions, Michael, then what?

03:37 Michael

Then I think we still have a status quo. Um we have this advisory board committee meeting next month, I believe it's July 23rd and 24th, the the PCAAC Committee. Uh they did hold their last hearing about two years ago where there was a recommendation for broader peptide usage and part of uh compounding pharmacy's ability to produce peptides and they did not get positive approval.

03:59 Michael

Now this is a recommendation board, it's not a requirement, but it's typically one that's fairly well followed by the FDA.

04:05 Michael

What's different this time around, obviously we've seen a change in administration, we see a change in the head of uh Department of Health and Human Services with Robert F. Kennedy Jr. leading that path. Um and I think the reason that we have been diving into this opportunity is because RFK Jr. has signal a very public uh potential support for some of these peptides that are used in this health maxing craze.

04:27 Speaker A

If peptides were to become, you know, more popular, more mainstream, Michael, who are some of the potential winners, you know, among publicly traded names.

04:36 Michael

The easiest company to draw line to would be Hims and Hers. Uh the Hims has created a very unique and interesting mouse trap designed to effectively and efficiently deliver drugs to individuals that want convenience, that want personalization and are willing to pay a little more in order to get that.

04:54 Michael

Hims started with drugs in the weight loss and erectile dysfunction, sorry, excuse me, the hair loss and erectile dysfunction category. They've moved into dermatologic products then to uh whole variety of weight loss products followed by hormone replacement, testosterone replacement therapy, peptides which management has talked about, feels like an extremely logical expansion for their next category or one of the next categories, given that it does interplay very nicely with what they're doing, not only in the weight loss category, but stuff like hormone replacement and testosterone replacement.

05:22 Michael

Play a large part to what would be a very similar demographic for the typical Hims member.

05:28 Speaker A

What could stop peptides, Michael from becoming a major material business? Is is it all really sort of a hang on on regulators, the FDA or or are there other potential risks, other ways it might disappoint?

05:36 Michael

The the the simplest straightforward reason is that we don't get approval and support. We saw this during the rise of the telehealth GLP1 companies, especially when there were shortages of um Wegovy and and Zepbound based products. You had a mass rush to compound as much as possible with varying levels of safety and and and efficacy of the drugs. And once the shortage is ended, then that mass compounding opportunity did die down a bit.

06:05 Michael

In this case, you don't have a necessarily approved drug or approved drug process to start with. And so having to have some level of either approval or support depending on what term you want to use, I think is the important point.

06:17 Michael

Beyond that it needs to be about safety. It needs to be about making sure that the people who are taking these peptides are doing it in a way where they aren't harming themselves, where you don't hear about various different side effects, be it ancdotal or significant in nature of health problems that arise from the peptides. If you don't have safety, it's going to be hard for these um this class of uh drugs to continue to be successful.

06:39 Michael

And then once we get to the far side of this, at least from the business case, I assume if we do get a mass compounding approach, certainly similar to GLP1s, there will be a number of different participants that try to enter the market, try to take advantage of what might be the demand opportunity, and usually when you have excess supply in the face of stable demand, that's where prices start to compress.

06:58 Speaker A

Uh on that subject you just brought up there, Michael, the safety and risks, um you know, I have uh at least two buddies who take peptides, they look phenomenal. I mean, honestly. Now granted, they also, Michael, they eat right, they never miss a workout. Um but what are when you were doing your research, I'm just curious, were there were there certain common general um safety and side effects issues that that you came across?

07:19 Michael

There there were certainly things that came up. There was a level of tolerability that came relative to gastrointestinal problems depending on what categories you're participating in. um certainly muscle fatigue, um which at times can be hard to be figured out if it was from the peptide itself or to your point from the lifestyle that the individual is living.

07:37 Michael

What we saw so much of in our research, especially going down various different social media rabbit holes is a almost prototypical heavy peptide user. Somebody who would be using peptides, maybe in conjunction with GLP1s, maybe not, maybe in conjunction with a very heavy uh workout regimen, healthy diet, um the that kind of bio-hacking dynamic that you come in to play with. That that wasn't every peptide user that we came across in our research, but certainly there was a almost lifestyle that's been created around these peptides.

08:04 Michael

And so you don't always know whether the potential side effects of the peptides themselves or side effects tied to what the peptide is trying to accomplish but maybe creating alternative challenges based on the lifestyle being led.

08:21 Speaker A

Michael, great to have you on the show today. Appreciate the discussion. Thank you.

08:24 Michael

Thanks for having me.